An invasion of armies can be resisted, but not an idea whose time has come.
Whoopi defends Vick but does so with flawed logic
Ok so Whoopi comes to the defense of NFL player Michael Vick
The problem however is that she points to Vicks up bringing and cultural background as the reason she feels why others should go easy on him. Whoopi says that in his upbringing these types of actions where never questioned — ok that might be true, but it does not provide an excuse for a 30 something year old man to break the law and abuse animals. The idea of using ones cultural upbringing as a defense of such crimes is extremely flawed.
First, I’m sure not everyone from the south is down with killing dogs and abusing animals, lets give them some credit Whoopi
Second, if we use “cultural” norms and up bringing to excuse the actions of individuals then we have to give a pass for all of the children of slave owners, all the children of racist parents, all the children of drug users, who then grow up and commit the crimes they saw their parents make. I simply don’t buy that excuse at all. As an adult, as a grown man or woman, we have the right to determine what is right and what is wrong and killing any animal in such a cruel way merely for sport and to get your gambling kicks is undeniably wrong. End of story. Grow up people and stop blaming your childhood for your short comings of character!
P.S Did I mention that I love me some Whoopi?
Startingtoday said,
September 6, 2007 @ 3:18 pm
Illegal is Illegal no matter how you look at it.
opit said,
September 8, 2007 @ 9:45 am
“Ill eagle” is a sick bird.
More seriously, there are legal recognitions in various countries that in limited cases the idea of ‘cultural norms’ must be considered to arrive at honouring the ideal of trial by a peer group. It’s a legal pain in the ass, of course.
Robert said,
September 8, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
While I can see the intent in that type of system I believe its flawed. With mass media, mass communication, the level of afluency of this country I dont think someone should be able to hide behind the reason “well my parents, community, high school” never told me it was wrong.
We are all capable of making decisions (especially after the early teen years) on what is right and what is wrong. Our society (the US) has reached a level of education & developement that allows individuals to seek out information, and even often have it thrusted upon them in terms of right and wrong.
I could see a system like this having more validity in a situation where someone from another nation commits a crime here, or vice versa, but again I think the US is homogenized to a degree that this argument does not fly.
Alisha said,
September 8, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
If you think the US in homogenized you are quite mistaken. There is such a thing as social conditioning. While generally you would assume that most people are raised with certain “normal” standards of right and wrong. Many are not. And what about situations when people know the difference between right and wrong but are just raised not to care. Believe it or not…not all parent’s do a good job when it comes to instilling values into their children. A person’s upbringing cannot be completely disregarded. And when you add the media into that equation, it doesn’t necessarily provide a solid moral compass. The media often glorifies and glamourizes behaviours that many would consider “immoral”. And as far as the level of affluence, only about a quarter of the population has a college degree and still there is still a very high drop out rate in high schools across the country. The US may be a wealthy educated country…but that doesn’t mean that wealth and education is spread equally.
I completely think that Vick was wrong and should be punished. But I can also acknowledge the argument that people’s social situation can affect their behaviour. (Although those who are extremely strong willed may be able to overcome their more unfortunate situations if they so desire. But really how many are that strong willed?)
Mental Dribble said,
September 9, 2007 @ 8:23 pm
While you bring up some solid points regarding what some of us lack in our up bringing people too quickly use this as an excuse for poor behavior.
Mr Vick is a grown man, one who is able to tell right from wrong and to use his childhood and cultural norms for justification / belittling of his crimes represents a growing lack of self responsibility in our society. He is of his own right mind and should therefore be judged on the actions he chooses to pursue. Be they right or wrong.
Alisha said,
September 9, 2007 @ 8:41 pm
I never said that he wasn’t grown and didn’t know right from wrong. I am more than certain that he knew what he was doing and fully deserves his punishment. But there are some where other circumstances must be taken into account. All I said is that a person’s upbringing and social situation cannot always be totally disregarded. And while some may be quick to use it as an “excuse” that doesn’t make it any less true. Even taking those circumstances into account, a person can still be effectively and appropriately punished.
Robert said,
September 11, 2007 @ 7:40 am
Ok so how do you Judge? If person (A) kills dogs but it was “ok” in his circle during his up bringing, how many years does he get in prison? if person (B) kills dogs but his parents always told him it was wrong, how many does he get?
Anonymous said,
September 11, 2007 @ 7:42 am
I totally agreed with your post about Vick. Here is my point of view:
I’m a 45 year old mother who grew up quite poor. My family life was completely dysfunctional and by all standards, I should not be the successful person that I am today.After my parents split in the seventies, I decided to work my butt off, got a scholarship to college and worked 24/7 all through the 80s and 90s. My husband and I have created a financially stable life for ourselves and for our children despite having completely dysfunctional childhoods. What I want to say is this: by the time you are 25 years old, I think a person needs to stop blaming parents and childhood for whatever is wrong in that person’s life. By the time you reach that age of young adulthood, you’ve had ample opportunity to discover the damage and/or deficiencies your childhood, teachers, parents etc..have created in your life up to that point. At that point, it is up to the young adult to remediate, to repair, and to quit blaming everyone else for whatever impairs or prevents one from being the person one wants to be. When you are an adult, your life is predominantly made up of CHOICES you make each and every day. While it is okay to acknowledge the “poisons” that afflicted you while you were a child, it is NOT okay to use them as an excuse for committing acts of malice or to break the law. What I tell my kids all the time is this:
Quite whining. Stop wallowing and giving me excuses. And don’t blame me for whatever is causing you to get derailed from succeeding.
Keep up the good work Robert!
RL
Alisha said,
September 11, 2007 @ 8:53 pm
Rob you’re over simplifying the situation. I’m not talking about something as obvious as, his parents told him it was ok to do it so he did or the opposite situation as he mentioned. Besides, justice is a slippery slope which is why we have jury’s who decide on a case by case basis what punishment a person should receive, also why there are ranges in many forms of punishments not always a set standards. Circumstances are always taken into account. It’s not something new. And I’ll say it again. I agree completely with teh punishment Vick is receiving. Because he was clearly wrong and knew he was wrong. That is plain as day. I’m not going to argue it anymore. Because there will be no convincing on either side and I’m not going to try to. All I’m saying is that sometimes I do have compassion for those who are made into criminals by their circumstances ( be it parents or standard of living or society of whatever) and even though I fully believe that people should be punished for their crimes, the punishment must fit the crime entirely, not just according to some words on paper that do their best to describe ever crime in ever situation.
Robert said,
September 11, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
“All I’m saying is that sometimes I do have compassion for those who are made into criminals by their circumstances”
I guess my area of disagreement is that I do not believe circumstances force someone into a life of crime. I feel its more a personal choice.
I understand your position. I think you understand mine. We are just going to have to agree to disagree.
Never thought this topic would get some many comments!